Fred Phelps' Clan of Controversy

[vargonian]

This oughtta start some fires...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/30/wes ... tml?hpt=T1

So, in case anyone has been living in a cave, the Westboro Baptist Church, run by Fred Phelps, has made headlines for a couple years for protesting the funerals of soldiers killed in action, claiming that it was the fault of The Gays or other such religion-inspired nonsense. The church was sued by a grieving family but the family lost, and now has been ordered to pay the legal fees of the aforementioned superstitious idiots.

Everything about the Westboro Baptist Church exemplifies what I loathe about superstitious belief and where it so often leads us (though admittedly they stand out as headline-grabbers). But, I have to ask honestly, why should it be illegal for them to hold these types of protests? I want to hear honest, thoughtful justifications rather than the usual: "Because they're assholes" or "If I were there I'd [something involving angry acts of physical violence]" or "Because it's hateful and we should police what people think". Sorry, poisoned the well a bit there. But I hope you get what I'm saying. Besides knee-jerk, gut-based, obvious angry reactions to Fred Phelps and pals, why would it be illegal?

[Ginto8]

Though I don't think that any court case would have ended against them (there aren't any laws against assembly, no matter where), I think it's total bullshit that the father had to pay the legal fees. They're screwing a guy over at his funeral, god dammit!

[ChrissyJ91]

The sad thing is I can't really think of any legal justifications for why it shouldn't be allowed to happen. I think that not only is it morally wrong but it just points out how difficult a liberty like freedom of speech is to govern as something that has been placed there to protect people will always be manipulated by 'people' like them. These 'people' should however be barred from funerals at the very least. I mean its bad enough to lose a loved one but then to have these assholes try and take advantage of it for their own selfish and idiotic means is seriously wrong. It truly worries me that people this ignorant and fucked up are given places of importance and are then able to influence others and gain additional support from those as fucked up as they are. I'm sorry if I've gone into a rant but I've had a lot going on at the moment and bullshit like this just adds to it.

[Maevik]

Well, freedom of speech and religion are glorious things, but they are not without their limits. Many forms of speech are illegal (or are at least grounds for lawsuit): slander, harrasment , lible, assault, or inciting violence/chaos (ie screaming fire in a crowded theatre.) Freedom of religion does not permit you to do things like sacrifice animals/people or even practice polygamy. What Westboro Baptist did was harrasment at best (grounds for lawsuit) and assault at worst (deserving of jail time.) There is no excuse for the way these folks behaved, and if the justice system has failed in protecting the rights of this soldier's family (yes, people do have a right to grieve in peace) then it is the responsibility of society to backlash against this hateful behavior.

Also regarding Westboro Baptist, they were in my hometown of Long Beach, CA last month doing a full week of protesting (which they advertised heavily on their website http://www.godhatesfags.com) against jews, against Obama, in front of abortion clinics, and primariy against gays (we have a high population of homosexuals, a big gay community and an annual gay pride parade.) When they showed up however, something pretty cool happened, they were met by students, gays, and a slopload of other people including many Christian churches all protesting them. They couldn't cross the picket lines in order to create their own picket lines, it was fantastic. The Christians were holding up signs saying "Judge not less ye be judged" and similar stuff. They didn't stay the full week :D

[Pickzell]

I know in the constitution it states right to freedom of speech and peaceful assembly, but isn't this worthy of a lawsuit for emotional distress? I mean it has to be in there for going to someone's funeral and making everyone more sad about their loss, especially since they might already be suicidal over it. Not to mention all the funerals I've been to were private...

Also regarding Westboro Baptist, they were in my hometown of Long Beach, CA last month doing a full week of protesting (which they advertised heavily on their website http://www.gothatesfags.com) against jews, against Obama, in front of abortion clinics, and primariy against gays (we have a high population of homosexuals, a big gay community and an annual gay pride parade.) When they showed up however, something pretty cool happened, they were met by students, gays, and a slopload of other people including many Christian churches all protesting them. They couldn't cross the picket lines in order to create their own picket lines, it was fantastic. The Christians were holding up signs saying "Judge not less ye be judged" and similar stuff. They didn't stay the full week :D

Hahaha, that's awesome.

[avansc]

To answer the question. Unfortunately in cases like this, the freedom of speech amendment does protect them, and should. Not that i agree with it.

Now.. I have been watching you diligently, and i think its very clear that you do not believe in any kind of religion. Which is fine, however, I have NEVER seen you be vocal about any other religion other than the Judeo-Christian. Now i don't care that you care you wanna draw correlations like... "person X says he is a Christian and does deplorable things, all christians a fucked, QED" it would be the quintessential for someone to find a atheist that does deplorable things and draw that correlation, but thats your prerogative. But don't dress your overwhelmingly bias against Judeo-Christians with a vail of, "I appose all religions equally". You may in fact think all religions are a crock, but i sincerely hope you do assume you demonize all to the same extent.

Please do not take this as post to defend what these dumb asses do with their protests. Id probably strike one in anger if i saw them doing something like this, and just because they call them selves a "Baptist Church", does not in any way mean they represent any baptists, christians, any religious people, or any people for that matter. There are deranged people everywhere, if they so happen to act this way under a religious organization it would just be and injustice and ignorant to assume they are the mold, they ARE not.

edit: chances are these people just like seeing their faces on TV. you are stupid for affording them your time.
edit2: just wanted to say i have never seen you be vocal about other religions, you may have and i missed it, if thats the case please point me in that direction.

[Maevik]

To answer the question. Unfortunately in cases like this, the freedom of speech amendment does protect them, and should. Not that i agree with it.

Now.. I have been watching you diligently, and i think its very clear that you do not believe in any kind of religion. Which is fine, however, I have NEVER seen you be vocal about any other religion other than the Judeo-Christian. Now i don't care that you care you wanna draw correlations like... "person X says he is a Christian and does deplorable things, all christians a fucked, QED" it would be the quintessential for someone to find a atheist that does deplorable things and draw that correlation, but thats your prerogative. But don't dress your overwhelmingly bias against Judeo-Christians with a vail of, "I appose all religions equally". You may in fact think all religions are a crock, but i sincerely hope you do assume you demonize all to the same extent.

Please do not take this as post to defend what these dumb asses do with their protests. Id probably strike one in anger if i saw them doing something like this, and just because they call them selves a "Baptist Church", does not in any way mean they represent any baptists, christians, any religious people, or any people for that matter. There are deranged people everywhere, if they so happen to act this way under a religious organization it would just be and injustice and ignorant to assume they are the mold, they ARE not.

edit: chances are these people just like seeing their faces on TV. you are stupid for affording them your time.
edit2: just wanted to say i have never seen you be vocal about other religions, you may have and i missed it, if thats the case please point me in that direction.

Who are you addressing? You're only using pronouns and it's really ambiguous.

[avansc]

Though it was implied that it was to the author of the post.

[vargonian]

, I have NEVER seen you be vocal about any other religion other than the Judeo-Christian.

Oh no problem, this is an extremely common objection directed toward American atheists, who are often accused of having some sort of bias against Christianity specifically. The reason this seems to be the case, you'll find, is extremely simple: It's what we encounter most frequently here. Christianity is the dominant religion in the United States, and the vast majority of those who hold power in our government identify with the Christian religion -- all the way up to the Commander In Chief. In fact, our last president believed that God wanted him to invade Iraq; and protect Israel, etc. This is a serious problem when foreign policy is influenced by superstitious belief. Many other government officials have various other superstitious beliefs which can affect policy; for example, some have justified an apathetic stance toward environmental policies, claiming that none of it will matter once the Rapture occurs. Many others reject evolutionary theory, justifying the teaching of non-scientific ideas in public school science courses. One congressman defended the "Defense of Marriage Act" in a House debate citing the common anti-gay Christian sentiment: "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."

You should fully expect that American atheists would have every bit as much of a problem if Islam or Scientology were the dominant religion, used in similar circumstances as fallacious bases for public policy.

Despite Christianity getting most of the attention in America (including by myself), it's by no means exclusive. I'm sorry if this is tangential since you were addressing me personally, but I regularly view science / skepticism forums, blogs, and podcasts/videos and there is certainly no preference given to any particular religion. Look at the atheist YouTube channels I subscribe to and you'll see Islam and Scientology take regular beatings, for example. In fact, I'd say Islam is perhaps the easiest target with regard to shockingly backwards and harmful belief systems. The official law states that the penalty for leaving the religion is death, and women getting raped amounts to them committing adultery, thus warranting the death penalty for the victim -- or else they can save their soul by marrying their rapist. (And this is just the tip of the superstitious iceberg.) Christianity has similar punishments, but thankfully most Christian-dominated nations pretend that these don't exist.

Now i don't care that you care you wanna draw correlations like... "person X says he is a Christian and does deplorable things, all christians a fucked, QED"

This is another common accusation. It's patently obvious that atheists can't and don't lump all Christians together. There are over 30,000 sects of this One True Religion, after all. I don't believe that my Christian coworkers, for example, are part of a secret militia that plans to kill police officers, or bomb abortion clinics, or protest soldiers' funerals, or rape children and cover it up, or marry multiple underage wives, or shun black people as being demons, or burn witches, or drag gay people behind their cars until they die, or murder atheists, or starve their children to death as a punishment for not saying "Amen", or withhold crucial medial treatment to their ailing children because they believe God will save them, or spread the myth that condoms spread AIDS, or teach that the Grand Canyon was formed by the great flood, or teach that the Earth is 6000 years old, or teach that evolution is a lie, or teach any of the other completely non-scientific ideas, or blame natural disasters on man's sin and claim that the victims deserved it, or claim that a child's handicaps are God's way of punishing the mother for prior abortions, or claim that the reason society is failing is due to the lack of prayer in schools, or ban atheists from public office, or... you get the idea.

But what I can do is easily point out irrational beliefs that literally millions of people subscribe to. I will gladly burden myself with clarifying statements of the form: "..but I'm not implying that all Christians are like this; I'm just referring to the subset of those who are."

it would be the quintessential for someone to find a atheist that does deplorable things and draw that correlation, but thats your prerogative.

Yes, that would be quite foolish, as atheism implies nothing more than a lack of belief in a deity. Christianity, while having so many different versions as I mentioned, at least has common themes you could derive. It doesn't make sense to commit an act "in the name of atheism", as atheism doesn't preach anything; it's not prescriptive. Christianity, on the other hand, certainly does. The Bible teaches that gays should be put to death, adulterers must be stoned to death, etc., so if a Christian commits one of these acts and claimed they did it in the name of Christianity, they'd have plenty to back it up with.

[avansc]

purely based on your last paragraph you have apparently no idea of what christianity is.

i find it so amusing that someone who claims to not believe in god, spends so much time on the subject. subscribed to videos about it, to forums dedicated to the subject.. in all my years of schooling in south africa and america, i have never once been told about religion (in south africa we did start and end the day with prayer, mmm, never had any shootings either.. i guess with your logic i can blame columbine, VT and the like on the lack of religion... see how dumb that is.), ID. or anything of the sort. yet you make it seems that these are common laws.

"Everything about the Westboro Baptist Church exemplifies what I loathe about superstitious belief and where it so often leads us"

"This is another common accusation. It's patently obvious that atheists can't and don't lump all Christians together"

Yes, your statement does not include all, but you do play it off as if it is a norm for someone who is religious to be crazy, and "often" do things like what the WBC does.

Anyways, i'm not here to convince or dissuade anyone from anything, its not my business.

The simple fact of the matter is this. ALL people do shitty things. it just happens, however you target ones that have a religious concentration to it, and more specifically, a Christian concentration, and make it seems that its because they are religious, yes while i'm sure there are crazy people who would do bad things because of that, its by far not the norm. there are atheists who would harm someone purely because they are religious... there just are crazy people. there are probably at least 2-3 billion(estimate) religious people on this earth... you think even 5% of those people do deplorable things because of their religion. 100 percent of them do bad things, but how many do it because they believe in this or that.

there are other things in this life that have much more effect on you, but you choose to pic this one subject. You act like its such an injustice to teach about religion in school(note, i dont think religeon should be taught in schools), but i never hear you complain about REAL injustices, america doing NOTHING about genocides, about kids starving to death everyday.

anyways, happy easter to all, hope you have someone to hide some eggs for you, im off to the lake.

[vargonian]

purely based on your last paragraph you have apparently no idea of what christianity is.

I fully understand that the New Testament overrules the Old Testament (except where it doesn't, which is chosen selectively and subjectively by the many different sects of Christians.) But you're right, with 30,000+ sects of Christianity, clearly it's not well-defined.

i find it so amusing that someone who claims to not believe in god, spends so much time on the subject. subscribed to videos about it, to forums dedicated to the subject..

This is another extremely common statement made against non-believers. "For someone who doesn't believe in God, you sure obsess about him a lot!"
If there's anything I obsess about, it's superstition affecting public policy, education, scientific literacy, etc. To me, this is a big deal.

in all my years of schooling in south africa and america, i have never once been told about religion (in south africa we did start and end the day with prayer, mmm, never had any shootings either.. i guess with your logic i can blame columbine, VT and the like on the lack of religion... see how dumb that is.)

Yes, you're demonstrating my point that it's foolish to assume that prayer or lack thereof has any effect on school violence. Thanks.

but you do play it off as if it is a norm for someone who is religious to be crazy, and "often" do things like what the WBC does.

How exactly do I "play it off"? Saying that religious groups often do crazy things (with varying levels of crazy, obviously: banning homosexuals is crazy, but less crazy than murdering rape victims) is not the same as saying that "most" or "almost all" religious people are crazy. The fact that it's common doesn't imply it's the majority, and likewise, the fact that it isn't the majority doesn't imply that it isn't common.

it just happens, however you target ones that have a religious concentration to it, and more specifically, a Christian concentration

Again, did you not read my last message? Yes, Christianity gets a disproportional amount of attention because it's the prevailing superstitious belief system in this country. But I give attention to any non-skeptical, irrational belief, especially when it affects public policy. The entire anti-vaccination movement is a great example. Diseases like measles and mumps are making a comeback because of the unfounded belief that vaccines cause autism in children. I also criticize ghost stories, UFO abduction stories, psychic claims, faith healing (Christian or otherwise), psychic surgery, etc. But when was the last time our tax dollars were spent on a psychic surgery? I'm sorry, call me selfish but I'm going to spend more time worrying about the irrational beliefs that have more of a direct impact on America, right now. Hence, I'm going to stress Texas' attempt to rewrite history to be more conservative-friendly (the school board's version of creating Conservapedia) while perhaps neglecting more sinister crimes that happen in other countries.

So yes, you can accuse me of being ethnocentric and maybe even short-sighted, but saying that I have some sort of specific bias against Christianity is a hasty conclusion reached by purely superficial observation.

there are atheists who would harm someone purely because they are religious... there just are crazy people

True, these may exist, but remember the difference I pointed out? Many of the major religions including Christianity and Islam actively endorse harming those who do not believe (all New Testament handwaving aside). I agree that these people, whether religiously motivated or not, are crazy, but it's easy to act crazy when your basis of morality doesn't have any sort of rational foundation. Do you think that the Phelps children were all born crazy? No, it was their backwards indoctrination that turned them this way. Likewise, an atheist could be just as irrational as a violent Christian or Muslim. The point isn't to single out any particular religion, but irrational belief systems in general.

you think even 5% of those people do deplorable things because of their religion.

I couldn't even guess a number of this sort, neither am I even trying to. You're making a counter-argument for an argument I never made. I agree that most theists are perfectly normal people, no more harmless than average. If I ever refer to or imply high percentages, I'm probably talking about the percentage of people who hold particular irrational (and potentially harmful) beliefs, such as God creating man in his present form a few thousand years ago, or homosexuality being a sin. In America, it's shockingly high for the former (something around 30%, maybe higher). Why is this a problem? Because these people can vote, including votes which affect public education, and I think it's important that people who vote on such important matters have some sort of scientific literacy.

there are other things in this life that have much more effect on you, but you choose to pic this one subject

This is a fair observation, since I am definitely big on scientific literacy, skepticism, and critical thinking in general. I know other people who are equally big on physical fitness, or the environment, or economics. They're all important. I guess it depends on what you feel is most meaningful for whatever reason. To me, critical thinking / skepticism is something that is all-encompassing. Its employment affects all aspects of our life, including everything I just mentioned (the environment, politics, economics, education, etc.), and it seems sorely lacking in our society, from the workplace all the way up to the highest levels of government. As for "why I care so much", I don't know. Why does anyone care about anything? I suppose I could just ignore the problem and hope it goes away (don't get me wrong, I'm not above that in many cases. )

You act like its such an injustice to teach about religion in school

When have I ever said this? I think it's great to teach about world religions in schools; and I was glad to learn about them when I was in school. We just shouldn't be teaching a particular religion as the truth, obviously.

but i never hear you complain about REAL injustices, america doing NOTHING about genocides, about kids starving to death everyday

This is a completely fair criticism. There are a lot of horrors going on that I don't focus on at all, and maybe I would make more of an impact on the world if I focused on them instead of the prevalence of magical thinking. But for whatever reason, I see critical thinking as a "big deal" whose advocacy has far-reaching implications. And I feel that my lazy self can actually do something about it by simply talking. I will leave the other problems to the capable hands of those who accept my charity dollars. This, on the other hand, is something I can have a direct impact on while keeping my day job.